An absolutely r…

An absolutely real conversation had *last week* between a pastor & a congregation….

Pastor: and why did you think about making this big change?
Congregation: well…we wanted young families
Pastor: Why do you want young families?
Congregation: Because we need them…..we won’t survive without them
Pastor: Ok, that is a really practical reason, but what are you doing for young families?
Congregation: um…
Pastor: Do you provide services they need? Are you helping them with their debt, or economic problems? Do you give them a break from their kids? Are there places that address their spirituality?
Congregation: um…we never thought about that…
Pastor: I would encourage you, instead of think of why you need young families, think about what young families need from you….
Congregation: That is an interesting point
Pastor: Remember, desperation isn’t attractive…providing care is…

Overhearing Real Ministry Conversations..or why http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/27/why-millennials-are-leaving-the-church/ hits the nail right on the head.

Why millennials are leaving the church

YES!*  (maybe the problem is THEOLOGICAL) Point and Case Example https://katyandtheword.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/an-absolutely-r/

WHy Church is not about Belief in JESUS!!!!

Every time we talk about belief in the Bible, the word is actually faith.

WAHOO! LET THE REVOLUTION BEGIN: religion is about belief, whereas it should be (and spirituality really is about) faith.

For a handy chart with some scripture click here

Here is the deal

Beliefs are the limit of human capabilities, they allow us to stretch. Knowledge takes us only so far, beliefs are what we can do beyond knowledge

Faith is letting go to what we know or even believe, and letting the fullness of God to enter our lives. It is beginning to understand that God is beyond our ken, and there is something we live in

Belief is individual, its something you say to define who you are. These is why beliefs are so hard to change, because they are about who you are, and you have reasons for the beliefs you hold. A person (like your spouse or sibling) has a set of beliefs oftentimes they are not e–zzzzactllllyyyy the same as what you believe. Beliefs are a part of who you are. This is why people (and groups, like Presbyterians) have a set of beliefs.

Faith is communal, its about what holds people together. Its often more about the gaps and differences rather than similarities. Faith is what allows you to not know everything, its about practicing the give and take of beliefs. If you don’t have the energy or the wherewithal to believe or trust in something, you can come to a group where others can do what you can’t. When people ask Why do you go to church? Can’t I just believe what I want to at home? I completely agree…one can be spiritual, disciplined and have beliefs on one’s own. And these beliefs are important. BUT, faith is a community that allows for a deeper exploration that isn’t only about what we believe.

Beliefs are tenants that we hang onto. The structures by which we understand the world. As much as they are about who we are, they also are about how we relate to the world and what is important to us. They are the structure on which we hang our hats (philosophers are GREAT at this). Beliefs are something to hang onto.

Faith is a seed–its a small beginning of who we are that we allow to grow. Although it starts out with who we are, its more flexible, not defining our world but instead is something we can come home to (Chart), somewhere to live in the world of different beliefs. Faith holds onto us when we are lost, its what comes and looks for us when we can’t find our way back–Prodigal son, lost coin, lost sheep.

There is nothing wrong with beliefs, I think they are great…they help us to define our world and to express who we are….there are places for beliefs in Christianity–they tend to be during the time of confession, when we say who we are, what we believe first together as a particular church and then silently as individuals. Beliefs are wonderful.

Faith is different that belief though, and in all the places (except in 1st Timothy) what we define as belief is actually faith: epistw (pronounced epistu) .

(Probably because the disciples continue to say they have unfaith, which isn’t a word for us but disbelief is….ah, the logistics of language LOL). Many, many times the disciples and followers of Christ confess that they do not have enough faith…they ask for Christ to help it to grow.

Belief is about telling our own story—telling who we are and why we are that way and what we believe

Faith  is about a way of life, a way of faith, hope and trust in the Lord that is beyond us without God’s help. Faith is something we CAN’T hang onto by ourselves, its too big for us to understand. Its like when Peter walks across water, one minute he has faith–the fullness of God in him, and then it becomes too much and he has to let go and thus starts to sink. These moments are flashes, pieces where we connect via community and God to the fullness of life.

Ex:

Luke 17:3b-6

“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them. The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.”

Note, the problem isn’t that the disciples don’t believe in forgiveness, no doubt they do. They just don’t necessarily have the capabilities to do that much forgiveness all the time, so they need more faith (more trust/hope/love from God) in order to be able to live a life of faith.

In Conclusion: Spiritual but not Religious …the church is doing it backwards Christians such as Peter Rollins, Jay Bakker and Jim Palmer deal with the problem of belief and doubt. They say that doubt isn’t counter to belief, its a part of it. I would dig deeper as say that both belief and doubt are a part of the richer, communal and God-intiated (and gift of) faith. (Faith Hope and Love, hence why LOVE is the most important, its about how you live things out, not what you believe)

The Church shouldn’t be a place of tenants and beliefs, it should be a community of questions and faith. The church should be a place for unbelievers to gather (the drunks, the prostitutes and the lepers should be taxi-ed in!)

•Ever notice that Jesus doesn’t go around touted his beliefs. Instead he ask people what they believe (or don’t believe) and then meets them there! (up a tree, by a well, at a stoning, on a cross)…The disciples certainly don’t always retain their trust in God. But, Christ doesn’t ask what people’s beliefs are before them, instead he works to increase their faith. And when people ask Jesus questions, he doesn’t tell them what they should believe, instead he asks them a question in return.

Essentially this scenario takes place over and over, the penultimate being the interchange with Pilate (Katy’s interpretation of events to follow)

Pilate: Who are you?

Jesus: Who do you believe I am?

Pilate: Are you the King of the Jews?

Jesus: So you say…

Pilate: You are the savior?

Jesus: If you think so….

Pilate: Just answer me, are you the King or aren’t you?

Jesus: You say I am, and all these people say I am, I don’t claim to be the King of the Jews, however, I will say this. Even if everyone stopped calling me the King, then the very rocks would say that’s who I am…just saying………

Note: not putting beliefs on others, just a discussion about where the community of faith was….that should be how the church exists!!!!!!

This is the call of the church, we are called not to a set of beliefs (that’s law people) but the gift of faith (YAY for saved by grace not works)……

I don’t know what I believe…but I do have a little faith!

For God so loved the world that whoever has (even a little) faith into him shall never die, but have eternal life

Spiritual & Religious Chart

When people say they are spiritual not religious, they are often indicating that they do not hold the “beliefs” purported/preached/encouraged (or forced) by religion. What they are trying to verbalize is their journey of faith, and the importance of it.

Here there is a little known dichotomy between belief and faith. Church should be a place to nurture faith, but spiritual people often see belief as getting in the way. (note epistus în the New Testament is often translated as belief, but it really means faith. “Belief” is only present in 2 Tim 13:11)

Belief                                                                 Faith

•Telling Our Story (our picture)                   •Telling God’s Story (God is bigger)

Belief                                                                 Faith

•tenants that help us frame the world         • the seed that can grow                              (                                                                                 (Mustard Seed of Faith Luke 17:3-6)

                                                                  Belief                                                                 Faith

•as far as humans can go: stretching to limits       • letting go—> to who God is                                                                                                       (Where were you when earth was formed Job 38)

Belief                                                                 Faith

•individual                                                        •communal                                                                                                                                           (Why church? so that the community can support you with faith even when you can’t)

Belief                                                                 Faith

•something we hang onto                                •what holds onto to us when we are lost                                                                                        (Prodigal Son Luke 15:11-32)

Belief                                                                 Faith

• things we say to define ourselves                 •something to come home to                                                                                                             (Heaven is like…Matthew 13: 31-32)

Everyday I’m a Pastorin……

Recently the Presbyterian Church tried to address the issue of health care. Basically, they wanted to start charging a higher percentage to families than to pastors without families. (Note a higher percentage, so the families were already paying more)….This is an issue because we try to do something we term “Call Neutrality” which is the idea that we pay everyone a living wage (so we have minimum’s) so pastors can be free to go to the church that best fits

People freaked out (including me)

This raised a whole lot of issues, which are really the issue.

1. Ministry jobs are hard to find. In PCUSA the stats are 3 pastors for every job out there.

2. Most ministry jobs aren’t fulltime anymore

3. Benefits aren’t that generous

4. The Economy is hard–and if your married your spouse needs a job

5. Most ministries are shorter–7 years is the reported average of a ministry, which is way different than the 30yrs that used to be expected

6. Pastors are younger and churches are older…I’m the youngest person at all of my churches by at least 12 years………talk about generational divide

7. The call process is long and hard

8. Call Neutrality is a myth. Young pastors go to small/poor/rural churches, women even moreso. Women get less paying jobs and are more often associates. Children “do” influence a church’s decision to get a pastor even though they are theoretically neutral

Ok, so here are the real issues, on the table

Now how does a call to ministry need to transform?

We talk about how churches need to change, maybe we need to start working on what a pastorate is

Can we be MORE supportive of part time ministries? 

Can we try other models of ministry (more part time ministries)?

Can we work more with all of those ministers who are called to specialized (i.e. untraditional ministries)?

Can the call process be more open or more streamlined?

Are there ways to support small churches doing searches in meaningful ways?

Can we work to get older pastors and young family pastors the stability they need?

Here are the real issues, lets get to it…

I wish we did more in church….

Things I wish I had time/space to do in church

paint stuff

cartwheels

color

pray using arts and crafts

do more stuff with flowing water (which is totally Biblical)

make a mess…without worrying about it….

read fantasy

leave the doors unlocked

encourage kids to dance… in the aisles

have a quiet place to pray

have a noisy place to pray

grow things in gardens

do theater on a very regular basis….

have an open toyroom for kids to play whenever they want

do real and interesting things on fb, twitter, etc. 

 

and that’s all I can think of for now

Stop Everything! Its a defining Moment!!

My new definitions of spirituality and church….”I think that belief is an individual thing and faith is a group thing…personally I like to have access to both”

Why do people god to church part 2 (you gotta love my defining moments ha!)

Why do people actually go to church?* (or …its like a family)

Whenever I talk to people about why they like going to church…the reasons I usually get come down to two reasons. (*Katy’s poll is totally anecdotal)

What Church People are actually saying

1. Its a like a family/the relationships, etc.

2. for the kids (although that tends to be a baby boomer reason)

Seldom to I hear (What church people aren’t saying enough of)

1. We are actually helping people 

2. The prayer is amazing

3. I feel connected to God

4. Worship is so meaningful

5. We are actively welcoming of all people…..

Pastor Fail? Denominational Fail? Gospel Fail? Church fail? Institutional Fail?

Where is the disconnect… (PS families are great, but to me there is more to it)

“I know why God…

“I know why God created atheists, because he loves diversity.”–a friend
How’s that for (w)holistic theology?

Trinity: Unity and Diversity, How we are all unique and yet part of one whole