God here’s a prayer for the church The messy, institutional church The one that is dying The one that is full of too many rules and regulations and buildings and other things
Here’s a prayer for this greater church That I grew up in and love, and still think can transform things
I have seen a million churches God
And through these imperfect vessels I have witnessed tears births
Children giggling in pews and holy silences
“I don’t worry about the church”
I say God, And you know, that most days I actually mean it
I can love this imperfect thing even as it is changing to something new Here’s a prayer for the church that raised me and is changing into something unrecognizable
like a new dawn after a storm
like a movement
Here’s a prayer for church a thing that happens in parking lots breakfasts phone calls and hugs
May we not get caught up in “saving it”
That was never our job anyway And instead catch glimpses of it along the way I pray
Amen.
Feel free to use/share/adapt with credit to Pastor Katy Stenta “KatyandtheWord”
If you want to know why pastors are leaving ministry There’s a lot of people to compassionately ask—but don’t do it the minute they are leaving maybe? If the PCUSA wanted to do a study (which are are renowned for) we could, but a study is just the beginning of the work…
I personally asked around during Covid and 30-40 PCUSA pastors told me very personal, very heartfelt stories about why they were leaving ministry.
I carry them in my heart and pray for them a lot because I want them to be happy where they are 🙂 (I realize I should clarify this) and some of them need healing and some of them might come back but only a couple and only if it’s right. After almost every conversation I affirmed every person’s choice to leave, because of course they were doing the right thing for them.
And of course every SINGLE person had legitimate huge, really hard, personal reasons for leaving that made the choice really valid and really tough.
But maybe it doesn’t have to be this way.
Maybe it does. Maybe ministry is a dying profession no matter what.
However, if we wanted to change the way pastors are paid and supported we could. Pay and congregational support/treatment were the two most named reasons. (Status due to gender, race and sexuality were also huge).
I still am hoping we will. Because I bet it will help the church to change into the justice bearing entity the way it needs to be.
Either way, I’m glad we are starting the conversation.
Content Warning: Sexual Abuse, Ordination Exams, Trauma
Bad Theology Kills There are nicer terminologies to make and there are definitely complete lexicons and entire books written of theology Karl Barth has a really complete theology of love Elie Wiesel asks tough questions about genocide war and abuse Just today, Amanda Palmer a somewhat Radical Feminist, who is all too imperfect herself (might I add) cited a quote her friend’s book who quoted the famous theologian Fredrick Buechner Amanda Palmer says “I feel this sentiment in my core today. I have seen, heard, been privy to so much darkness lately. I feel honored to stand near it, but also see – laid painfully bare, more than I ever have – the unfathomable and sometimes unbearable wounds of trauma. The depths. The seemingly unhealable.” She says this not knowing that this is a theological quote, but Amanda Palmer, pop star, gets it that Life is a Terror text
And for me Theology is how you practice your Christianity; It is where the rubber meets the road
Not being afraid means, dealing with the trauma as it comes, but also acknowledging that the trauma is real. One cannot pretend it isn’t real.
Because the reality is–Bad Theology kills
White Page that says Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don’t be afraid–Frederick Buechner
But for me…
When you force the people you want to be pastors to sit in a room utterly alone with what is possibly the most traumatic text in the Bible its abusive
I guess I should start with this: I believe in apologies. I believe in full and complete apologies. I believe in confession. I believe in stating fully who you are, what you have done right and wrong and trying to fix what is wrong so that we can fix that wrong things, and make things better. It is a core theology of mine.
I think that there is confusion Those who are hurt do not want an apology for the Bible The apology would be for the trauma
And when you don’t apologize And you say–we have done such things before
And that does not make you examine how you have done things before
And when you feel like the entire weight of the church ordination and the denomination is on your shoulders
And that does not make you pause and confess and think
Maybe there could be a more life-giving way to do this
And when person after person has come to me and say This is the last straw
And these other people tell me I’m leaving ministry and the process of becoming a minister because of this test…
To pretend we have all sufficiently dealt with trauma On the eve of the third anniversary Of a worldwide pandemic Is ludicrous–there is not such thing as an untraumatized person right now So yes, we know trauma is real We also do not want to practice bad theological practices Because Bad Theology Kills We know this!
It is different to deal with a text Where you know in advance about it In community When you can call your therapist When your entire job is not on the line When you can ask for help
Also
If you don’t think that the Judges 19 scandal Isn’t cut from a similar cloth as the complementation scandal the Gospel Coalition is dealing with… You are missing how women continue to be subjugated and ignored via the Bible…(See Also: How is this coming to a head when trans bans, drag bans, books bans, teaching history bans and rest is happening gives a lot of food for thought) Because Bad Theology Kills: it is Killing calls to ministry right here and now
Picture of a women facing a panel of just men who say: It’s not that we don’t believe your story. IT’s that we don’t care. Cartoon by NakedPastor
Welp..I guess you were right.. I guess this test is that important But not in the way you thought it was
If more self care is needed for pastor By God, let’s do it! I’m all for it! What resources can we provide Let’s hire full time Sabbatical pastors, a therapist and a Chaplain, One for every Synod or for General Assembly If you want to be generous For every Presbytery!
You think more education is needed? Great lets open up free schools! Let’s provide arts clubs and places of music& PE all those things schools are cutting (Fun fact Sunday School taught kids to read FOR FREE When School was inacessable, because kids had to work; what could Sunday School be for the arts now– If we took that as our model?) Lets be the most educated denomination In the land. Let’s get that equity going! I bet all the kids would enroll In free college classes In LGBTQIA and Community Organizing classes What more could we provide–could we give free virtual classes in the Bible? What about classes about theology? The latest books? The Nap Ministry? This Here Flesh? The Possibilities are endless. Faith Seeking Understaning, we could learn so much together!
Lets help support all those Black and Brown Churches The ones we’ve been ignoring for years What resources do they need? I bet they could tell us what they need, and why, and give us a host of ideas, quick! Let’s start it tomorrow.
You think everyone is overworked and tired? Great, lets start pay equity and healthcare, Could we provide healthcare for our support staffs even more than we do now? How much more can God do? How is that Family Leave Overture going? I can tell you every pastor I know is looking at if your Presbytery has it before they consider moving there
Did your Presbytery, Synod or Leader agree or disagree with the Judges 19 test? Is your area dealing with a pastor shortage? I bet there is a more experience oriented, Justice-giving, innovative Matthew 25 way to Educate and Support Pastors.
Did you know most pastors are older, LBGTQIA, POC? They are not going to be the married white man with children, and that is great, because most ministries are going to be different from here on out. If we are going to reach the community, We are going to have to ordain pastors beyond the pews.
While we are re-imagining what it means to be a minister (Hint: look at all the ways to minister in Matthew 25) It might be time to rethink how we evaluate ministers:
I don’t know about you, but while I am running my church’s 3 nonprofits, and taking care of my congregation, I don’t have time to conjugate Greek and Hebrew verbs– I love the vocabulary, but the community is just a bit more important (Don’t worry its just me, I preach 48+ sermons a year, 13+ years, Princeton Trained, but my credentials matter less than my ministry work)
And while we are speaking of that and entry level ministry How many entry level ministers go to a flourishing ministry with associate ministers who take care of other things, while they sit in the office and work on their sermons, None?
My theology is to take care of the people first Of course I do that about talking about the Bible I reference (and study) the Bible EVERY single day But I don’t do that in Greek and Hebrew I do that by sitting by the Well and listening, and Walking in the Community and meeting people where they are at every chance I gettoCommunity build and partner.. I’m just following the example of some Rabbi I admire…
I hope you have time to do that too And maybe someday, we will realize that our goals are the same To be a Matthew 25 Church And to serve God and God’s people, together
Article by Pastor Katy Stenta @katyandtheword Feel free to use/share with attribution
When word broke that the PCUSA ordination translation exam in Hebrew would be on the rape located in Judges 19.* I like most of my colleagues had to go and reread the passage to familiarize myself as to just how triggering it might be. (This is a passage on abuse, rape and violence, all the trigger warnings)
This passage is not included in any of the lectionary (cycles that are regularly preached upon) in the Bible, for good reason, and thus is not at my fingertips in meaning. I just remember it is bad. Upon rereading, it’s really, really terrible and should only be studied in certain settings and with care and understanding.
Ordination exams in the PCUSA are, in my opinion, similar to Doctoral exams and lawyer bars because they harken back to the days when pastors, doctors and lawyers were the most educated and well paid individuals in the community. Let me say succinctly that although pastors positions have changed, the tests in the PCUSA have not changed much, in fact what used to be referred to as the Baby Bible: a quiz on Bible knowledge, has become more difficult.
To put to task someone, five days alone, translating a triggering and traumatic text is the opposite of pastoral. Especially when we require all of our candidates for ministry to undergo psychological assessments before they go into ministry. A good and just practice for everyone involved.
Let me first break down the responses I have seen to those who have objected to the test and then take a big picture view of the entire situation.
First, the responses are completely insufficient. First the committee said that they had someone did raise objections that the Judges 19* might be triggering but they met and prayed on it and proceeded anyway.
Then they said that the fact that this is a 3 year process to set up tests and readers means that at this juncture they consider it too late to do anything more.
Now the committee is stating they will let people take the next round of tests without charge, which will still delay ordinations, jobs and not be that helpful. Also the committee are responding individually and have not yet made a public statement meaning some students will be left in the dark.
To take a more broad view, let me just say that there is a huge pastoral shortage, seminaries are in flux about how to educate people, finding readers is a huge task and most Presbyteries, Synods, etc. are also understaffed. In short the denomination has hit the wall. The last gathering I went to with a bunch of PCUSA attendees I heard more than once people voice that they were uncertain that the denomination would last more than ten years.
Additionally, in light of Covid-19 et. al, I want to say that I can understand that the committee probably, was in survival mode, and missed what they should have seen. However, it’s not too late to change course.
I also want to say that, probably why it is so hard to change course is because I believe that it is not just Judges 19* that is on the line. The entire ordination exam program is not working. The reason why the committee feels like they have to go forward, is because everything will crumble if they do not keep going as is–maybe it’s time to let things crumble.
The ordination system is not working anymore, the seminary system has the fewest number of students ever, I and my parents were shocked to hear of the handful of attendees that are now in the seminary we attended instead of the couple of hundred that attended when I was there a mere twelve years ago.
Change is upon us. The programs that are succeeding, like my doctorate of ministry in creative writing at Pittsburgh Seminary, are so different that they seem to come out of left field and surprise everyone. Even the successful things seem to be overwhelming at such a time as this.
Sometimes I think all the church people are walking around saying to each other “Do you mean we have to change everything?” and the Holy Spirit just keeps coaxing us along in the best possible ways. I think there are faithful and joyful ways for it to all happen, if we have the ears to hear it all–however the signs of change have been around us for a while and we are reaching the point of no return where it will only get harder, not easier.
I am a revitalization minister. My specialty is to take a ministry that has hit rock bottom, and know it has to change, and to work with the strengths it already has towards the new thing God has already planted within us. It is different than interim work, it’s not just shaking things up or holding the position for the new person, it is planting a million seeds, building trust and doing the work of transformation.
I believe that God can revitalize the PCUSA, but it would take a lot of change, a lot of money, and a lot of new things. It would be very scary. It would mean admitting that the old ways are not working, and seeing those things that signal to bigger problems.
It takes a lot of good hard work, but then Presbyterians are not afraid of work.
Also, I believe in resurrection. In order for us to be a resurrection people, some things have to die. This is the harsh truth of who we are and how we live. I believe in the resurrection and the life everlasting and the Kin(g)dom–this is part and parcel of why I am a revitalization minister. It’s not all about heaven for me.
I think we all need to look at the Judges 19* conversation again as a broader one of what we mean by ordination, church, seminary and our denomination in general.
And yes, we need to change the test too, immediately.
*I am not inviting you to read Judges 19 if you are a victim of abuse or sexual violence. Please take care of yourself.
Also People who are writing about the inherent sexism and privilege intrinsic in this decision, which is true and harrowing. I myself am thankfully not a victim of violence. Here is a good place to start Traci Smith
My name is Katy Stenta and I’m the pastor of teeny tiny pastor 30 members, 60 congregants. I attended GA via twitter last year, when I broke my foot and was limited in the running around type of ministry I’m used to. I was so energized and excited about electing 2 women as CO-Moderators and our first African-American Clerk, gender-neutral bathrooms, etc.! I saw some problems (the Young Adult Advisory thing is still way weird and ageist, but still) I saw Vision 2020 unfold and thought the name for a committee that looks at the past and toward the future was perfect!
But somehow, we are back to structure. And although it does affect me and my church, I cannot begin to explain what is going on to my church other than “we are trying to restructure.”
But I’d rather be telling my church “we as a denomination are finding our vision”
We with missionaries across the globe, we with a deep history of translating Bibles. We with our Belhar Confession, and our hope to address POC, queer, white culture, gun violence, economic injustice, hunger, etc. We, with more money than small nations are looking at our gifts. I want to say that we are doing the work of faith seeking understanding, that we are providing access to God to ALL people. We are becoming the denomination to go to learn about God.
I want us to be saying “We could plant 100 churches tomorrow if we wanted to”
“We could support a college intern at every church, to help them pay off their student loans and give them leadership skills for their passion”
I want to be able to say “Every local church is a welcome map, with a website that gives salient information about the neighborhood and area to every family in the community”
I want us to have denomination wide advocacy about racism and gun violence in a way that ties us together.
What if we had courses at every church and Louisville as a place to learn about God
I want us to be infinitely supportive of all our children going to camp, of all the chaplains of college and hospital ministries.
I want us to be actively training people to help our ageing population, and our special needs community.
I want us to be just place to work, where people say “go work for the Presbyterians, because they are awesome”
There are so many ideas we can do, and these are just mine. I want us to be in a position to do these great things and so many other, very doable things.
Why do I love church? Because it has the most potential to empower anyone, ANYONE, to do good works. If you have a good idea, church oughtta be a place where you can try to pursue. And age matters (less), Paperwork matters (less), we are still working on issues of justice but if you wanted to truly help people and got a couple of people on your team, church is a great place to pursue that passion.
And I don’t know what to do with a structure conversation which I barely can understand, despite being well-educated and trying to follow it.
I want us to get the structure to a place where it can work for us instead of obsessing about it.
And I am a born and raised Presbyterian, I love decent and in order. I love structures, I am a list person, I recite my schedule constantly, and I rely heavily on having a piece of paper for everything I do (like every stereotypical Presbyterian).
However, I know we can do better than this. This is not a plea to stop the structure conversation, but to try, our hardest, to move beyond it. Do you know HOW MANY PEOPLE applied to be on 2020 Vision Team? There are that many people excited for vision, excited to become the faith seeking understanding church, excited about what is just beyond the horizon.
We have so much potential, how can we help to pursue it?
Sermon Snippet: The Presbyterians of the United States have been almost embarassingly blessed in the past, so to feel anything but hope now would be…foolish (Tom Are) So the promise that we need to know, the one that we have trouble with, but the promise that God continues to make through Abraham, Moses and in Christ, the promise that is sealed into each of us at our baptism, the one that is so hard to believe when religion and worship changes. God’s simple promise is this no matter what: I will be your God, and you will be my people. Isaiah 42: 5-7.2 Cor 2:15 & 3:18
We are listening to the immeasurable Diana Butler Bass who is greatly illustrating her theories on church and culture, when the news breaks on twitter a little before 7:30 (she started at 7).
Its a amazing, its wonderful.
I text the news to my parents.
I can’t believe it.
Twitter is going crazy.
The real question is Can we interrupt Diana Butler Bass?
7:28 pm @miheekimkort suggests “@revJohnRussell at 7:30 lets stand up and scream”
I tweet @bookkats “Feel the pcusa urge to stand up and proclaim the good news even tho its rude to interrupt awesome DBB” at about the same time
I wait for 7:30, sure someone will do it…
THREE agonizing Holy Spirit Bubbling minutes later (7:31) I realize no one has….
Then she talked about the fourth awakening, and its true realization (as in any realization) is when social justice comes into play, so I’m like “Ok, and now she’s talking social justice. Holy Spirit help my extrovert.”
I am totally bursting with the news. This is good news! This is my job to tell good news, and I have REALLY GOOD NEWS, and texting my parents isn’t going to do it!
@jledmiston says Can someone ask Q@dianabutlerbass for a brief space to acknowledg the PCUSA’s big news?
We were awaiting authority, in Nextchurch, which I love to define as the organic and hands on ideas of what is next for the church …irony….
So I’m like, maybe a quiet way is better (I guess I’m getting better at practicing some restraint) I Tweet “Stand up and hold up your phone maybe?”
This is the time, I realize, Diana Butler Bass is talking about the no going back change, the revival at the point ofsocial justice: what a moment to tell the news!
Meanwhile I hear rustle, rustle, rustle, everyone is looking at their phones
@mollyfid nails it on the head “Y’all, I”m about to Burst! UNfreeze yourselves presbys! Surely DBB will pause for a cheer”
Then I realize…I’m in the balcony, I’m in the first row. This is totally not awkward (I mean heck I’d love to do it from the most awkward and silliest position ever)….I’m the extrovert.
Oh my God….its me…I’m the one who is called into this place at this time to do this….its me, and I’m going to LOVE it
I stand up and (rather timidly) raise my hand. “Excuse me Diana….Sorry to interrupt, but we are just bursting here. We just passed 14F, all people can marry”
And I see it……from the balcony, everyone stands up and hugs and cheers in an almost disordered fashion….
It was beautiful, it was holy
my sister is trans…
I burst into tears
Diana Butler Bass asked my name and then said “The Episcopalians welcome you” 🙂
The amazing moment when God uses my no-hold-barred extroverted self who happened to sit in the front of the balcony at that moment…on the day when Brian preached about acceptance in the morning in the evening where the Presbyterian Light people were already planning their reception.
What do you call that but holy?
Holy
And then, we listened as best we can to Diana, hearing all the better her critiques because we were in a better place as church (claim the entire denom has failed, no problem : )
And then, we went and did church! The planned 80 people who went to the Presby Light & Covenant Network Joint reception were way…way…more….
Too many Presbyterians, after a long day, did church that night at a bar.
We have become a fuller church, how can we include people next, is Belhar Confession around the corner?
We did church, then and there with loud music and too many Presbyterians and drinks and food…
1. You are awesome, seriously this is a lot of work, much group prayer and more! Here are some things I’ve learned from “my” perspective as a candidate that might help you know the process
a. this is not a corporate job–its more like dating, the interest needs to be mutual. Although you (the church) do take the more “traditionally male” role in doing the asking, you get to indicate to the pastor when you want to first speak person-to-person.
b. There are three kinds of referrals on the clc.pcusa.org website. the NUMBERS only are SELF-REFERRALS straight from the pastor, indicating interest. The EP numbers are referrals made by an EP (probably yours altho possibly the pastor’s). The other numbers, cs or crs are computer generated matches (which are definitely valid but are without a human hand).
c. When you email/call or do any kind of contact kindly include your MIF #. Getting an Email from Springfield PNC and not knowing what state Springfield is in, makes it difficult for me to indicate my interest.
d. Pastors do NOT get updates (by email or otherwise) if they have been matched to a church. (Actually what you have to do is filter through ALL the churches that have ever matched you and try to find you). This means the pastor might have missed you on their “matches.” Its not that the pastor is uncaring, its just that the pastor gets many matches from churches who will never call or indicate interest, plus a working pastor is probably busy taking care of his/her own ministry, so again, include your MIF number and expect that the pastor will have to remind themselves who you are before he/she proceeds.
e. PNC defines the process. As you know you spend a lot of time deciding what the next step is in the process, try to keep the candidates informed as to where you are and what the next step is, and (approximately) when that step will be taken. (also, unanimous decisions might be trickier than you think and we believe in consensus and embrace differences, so do the best you can and think twice about requiring unanimous decisions)
f. Different Churches have different technologies: The pastor only has 1 video sermon? Probably that was really hard to finagle. Do not assume that the church’s technological knowledge is the same as the pastor. Maybe the pastor wants taped sermons or video streams but the church just can’t get it together. Be open minded about how sermons come your way.
g. Similarly most churches don’t know their pastor is looking: It may be as simple as the pastor isn’t ready to tell them or some other complicated reason. Getting congregational references might not be possible if the pastor is doing a closed search (i.e. their current church doesn’t know). Professional, Peer and Educational references tend to be what you get. Usually you get SIX references while the church only gives two. These refs are prob enough to give you an idea of how the pastor works.
h. The Pastor is juggling a lot. You may be calling when a congregation member died, the pastor may be waiting to hear back from a neutral pulpit, or perhaps he/she has been out sick. Chances are if the pastor is asking for a little time its because they are taking care of their current call (yay! You want a pastor who is maintaining a good working relationship with their current call). Ask twice if you need to and remember that you and the pastor are working in different time-space-realities. i.e. its like you are in 2 different dimensions. Try not to feel blown off if the pastor gets bogged down, maybe that’s just a hint from God about how the process is going and it probably isn’t personal.
i. A good indicator as to whether the interview went well is if it goes beyond the paper MIF and PIF info exchanges and starts to examine theology (i.e. where is Jesus, God, Holy Spirit at work in the church and in the pastor and do those things match)
j. Be honest. Talk about those skeletons, the rough spots, the imperfections. I fully believe that God calls pastors to churches where they can help each other in their imperfections, there is no such thing as a perfect pastor or a perfect church. There is such a thing as a loving pastor and a loving church.
k. The first visit is a conversation, and part of that conversation is showing how you will be taking care of the pastor. These and other interactions will help to “set the tone” of your relationship with one another. Try to be thoughtful if family cannot come, weekends are hard to come by (pastors are usually using their vacations to come out and see you), or if the pastor has pets for the manse, is not planning on buying a house right away or some other life piece that actually has less to do with how they are as a minister and more to do with their personal life situation. Tip: Try to leave some down time for the pastor to get out on their own, and to process and pray about the visit. Its very kind to tell the candidate how many people have reached this point and when you hope to decide.
Exceptional Ideas: Big Church with lots of energy? Consider hiring a young/fresh pastor who has lots of ideas? Fulltime Solo Pastorate? Consider hiring a woman (most women only get part time ministry jobs) Got a favorite ministry? Send the links to the candidate, Want young families? Consider a single pastor with more time or a more experienced, older pastor. Hiring an Associate Pastor? Consider hiring a competent Co–Pastor instead. God calls different people to extraordinary roles we don’t expect. Moses was shocked to be a leader, Samuel, Daniel and Joseph, all of these people were put into ministries that “weren’t usual” for the time.
Also, pray for each candidate, pray that they find God’s call wherever it is. We the pastors REALLY appreciate it!
The burning question I have for General Assembly….wouldn’t it be cool to have the Order of Worship online? (or am I missing it), I think it would be so cool to pray what they are praying while I’m many miles away…and maybe even bring those prayers to my congregation as I try to educate them about GA?
GA is coming, that’s Presbyterian Speak for our large governmental gathering “General Assembly” where we discuss worrying things like Our Investments (or not) in Israel, How important gay issues really are (or aren’t), and……the fact that there are no young people in the church. Debate will ensue about most of these issues, except the last one. There is no governmental amendment to magically change the demographics of the church
There will be lots of worrying about the drop in membership, the drop in money and the drop in young people in the church.
People will ask where have the people gone? They will also ask why people won’t represent (Particularly the lay people), they will ask where the children are….and they will worry…
However, I do believe that at most churches, Presbyteries and even on the GA floor the wrong question is being asked. The question that really asked isn’t Where are all the people.
The worry IS about the emptiness.
But I think the question people are really asking are not “Where have all the people gone?” but rather “Where has Jesus gone?”
Because, if Jesus was in church, then wouldn’t the people be in church? If Jesus was here, wouldn’t people flock to us and what we are doing?
Here I have to confess: I believe Jesus is in the church!
But I also believe Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit is already at work in the world. I believe that church doesn’t hold a monopoly on God (our God is bigger than that)
and I believe that the emptiness the church is feeling is real and is scary….I also believe we have felt it before, when Jesus died on the cross, when the tomb was empty, when Jesus Ascended, when the church was scattering across Africa, etc. etc.
The church is empty, but what can we theologically learn from that emptiness
Maybe Jesus will find us in our church and ask us….
You are afraid of the emptiness? Look at what God did with an empty tomb!
(and p.s. if you want more families to be present I highly recommend BABYSITTING and FAMILY FRIENDLY accommodations as a start, it isn’t an amendment that will bring families flocking in, but it is a way to serve those who are already present–this should not be an uphill battle folks, it should be a given)
katyandtheword 